I feel a little like a Kremlinologist. Best to assume nobody's going anywhere until the very last thumbs up triggers the apocalypse.
Do you think saying sex is binary and immutable is disparaging, dehumanising, or hateful?
If it's said sufficiently stridently & aggressively, then yes.
Ian for Labour MP. AuroraSaab for the Nobel Patience Prize.
Bromptonaut for the Jowwy Award.
The what award?I personally find what some other members say more appalling than whatever comes out of j's mouth
It was actually a photo finish between him and Ian – the judges were particularly impressed by "stridently".
you guys literally had this exact same discussion [about an opinion piece in Scientific American] about two weeks ago.
I noticed that too. Here's a video for the children to watch (I'm guessing AS is a teacher):
I've a disability, but this thread has many similar themes running through it. It's the fear of the unknown, it shows through every time this subject comes up.
It's fear of the known: male assault. Transwomen are men, and
offend at the same rate as men. (
Actually...) Women shouldn't have to be fighting to keep their sex-based rights. All this has been
said before and will be said again, because enough people, especially men on the left blinded by their fear that the right might be right about something, still don't get it.
@multitool
Don't encourage himI want to leave this thread now, but probably won't. My current compromise is to quietly add to this post, the date stamped on top
and lack of an edit line a pretence that I haven't been back. Do you think that'll fool anyone?
Auroraphobia
Post of the day.
AuroraSaab is a bloody saint for
keeping at it – add canonization to her CV. She's the straight man to the joker.
I'm struck by multitool's inability to disengage from this topic. We're alike that way. Does he have a very personal stake in this,* or is he simply a
misogynist, turbocharged by perceived misandrist slights?
We're on opposite sides of reality – which is my stake in this. He can comfortably lie all day long.
The increasingly
naked disdain of women out in real life (if parliament counts) is becoming ever more
alarming. Too many either aren't paying attention,
can't see it, or don't care. Add to that the gobsmacking science illiteracy, and it's more than a little depressing.
REFRESH
Doubtless I'd be flattering myself to think I have anything to do with tool's changing avatars. The latest is a
Mandrill, an old world monkey. Looks like a baboon, but much more sophisticated.
I'm not liking the look at the 'extremists' at either end of this 'debate'
Bothsidesism. A condition which ironically affects those who are viewing the debate with at least one eye closed.
I'd pause for thought about my contribution to the 'othering' of minority groups
"Othering" is worth exploring. AS goes the 3rd spaces route here, which I think is a mistake. It certainly won't placate trans identifying men, which she knows. The only thing that will work* is men accepting non gender conforming men in their spaces, and men who think they're women ceasing from trying to bend reality around their needs. Basically, men need to man up all around.
* Old school transsexuals mostly got a pass, but it’s all gone Pete Tong, hasn’t it.Look, take the last word.
Tease.
REFRESH
My starting point is that Transwomen should be treated as women.
Any increase in risk to those born female which that poses needs to be managed and mitigated.
Have another Jowwy Award. I think someone at Mumsnet put it best, though she'd have Ian quaking at the stridency:
protecting one woman from rape is more important than validating the genderfeelings of all the transwomen in the entire fucking world.
Goddam videos keep going private on me. This is what I get for taking the road less travelled.
[More catnip to multitool. Pic of Keen looking almost unrecognisable if you've only seen her in "drag", along with husband, who probably should've been cropped out, but let's make this as personal as possible.]
Outing Keen as a performer is meant to make us doubt her authenticity, and thus, look askance [because
you can't listen askance - Ed.] at her message. Which is what again?
The distraction is so clear. Look over here is evil!!! Evil, I tell you!
No… don’t listen to her. Don’t listen to her saying that children and teens are on irreversible medical treatments because they express they feel like the opposite sex. Don’t look at the paucity of evidence that affirming only treatment and those drugs and surgeries are the best treatments.
Don’t look at the rapidly growing evidence of females of any gender being raped, impregnated and abused in prisons because some males want to be housed in female prisons.
Don’t look at women’s sports and the facts that even the IOC has declared that inclusion should be prioritised over fairness- the IOC!! How much do they hate women and girls!
Don’t look at the women begging for female single sex spaces being ignored and abused. No! No! Don’t look at the Rape Crisis Centres vilifying women for asking for just one group to be female only out of a ‘women’s’ group, an LGBTQ + group and a men’s group!
Don’t look at the rapes occurring in NHS hospital wards!
Don’t look at what happens in sexist sectors when sex segregation is removed for rewarding performance! I mean, who the fuck ever thought the entertainment industry would be sexist? Really?
No! no!
Holocaust denial!
Right wing listening to words!
Sparple! Sparple! Sparple!
That's from a KJK appreciation thread over at the coven.
Hellofabore was responding to
EastLondonObserver, who reminds me of multiflounce.
have you thought about being kind
I'm a bit late but would like all the men to know that being kind is over, it's dead, it's been cremated and never coming back.
It's Hells Fury o'clock.
More highlights:
All I can say about KJK is she gives me courage and motivates me to not be sacred and to get off the couch to do something IRL to show my opposition to Gender Ideology and how dangerous it is to women and children. How the TRAs are getting away with all this insanity is by intimidating and frightening people, especially women. The majority disagree with them but people don’t speak up at work and in public because of how they believe they will be persecuted and socially ostracized. This is demonstrated when KJK and other women go outside to give their views in public (about anything) and the opposition is an angry threatening crowd, with many men willing to cover their faces and physically attack women.
I have no time for anyone that criticizes KJK while not first denouncing this aggressive and intimidating behavior and asking all demonstrators in opposition to her to show their faces and refrain from wearing Black Bloc. There is literally no comparison to men publically intimating and physically attacking women and women speaking.
If we spend all our time waiting for the perfect voice, we'll never hear one. Glinner and Posie Parker have their faults but who the fuck else was sticking their neck out on this.
If we don't all scream at the top of our voices, we will get drowned in a vomit-wave of Be Kind/Tiny Minority/Just Want To Pee.
I love listening to KJK. It is just such a relief to hear her speak. I feel like I can breathe again when I hear her thanks to her honest language and the moral code she presents of dialogue with all parties, avoiding purity spirals, genuinely caring about and listening to ordinary women, an unwavering dedication to protecting children.
The language of gender identity and queer theory is so suffocating and silencing. KJK brushes it all away and brings fresh air back.
I love the fact that she scares the shit out of everyone by doing nothing except telling the truth and calling things by their names. She's a tactical genius and I'm bloody grateful she's on the side of women and children.
Here's some honesty: that face needs to grow into that voice.
REFRESH
It is a debate about very complicated issues, which I accept I also do not know a great deal about
The usual escape clause. Disappointing.
Why do you think I've essentially given up contributing? You can't make jokes, you can't even admit you don't have all the answers, you can't even try to keep the discussion relevant to a limited and specific aspect of the situation without having your words twisted, opinions ascribed to you that you don't hold, having your own sex flamed, your arguments diverted into meaningless whataboutery. There's no point.
A lot of unevidenced claims there without a forensic accounting. Consider starting a blog and
talking to yourself. It's therapeutic.
@winjim uses the discussion process to interrogate and develop his thoughts on the matter, rather than steamrollering through the thread with a set of granitic certainties and getting defensive at every minor challenge thereto.
For "develop", I read embed (in part, judging by his reactions); for "steamroller", defend (and "defensive", simple rebuttal); "granitic certainties", 2+2=4.
As for jokes,How many terfs does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. It will always be a lightbulb.
